Thursday, September 3, 2009

CHINA AND THE BUZZ OF A PENDING BANK DEFAULT

Let’s put the pieces together here. Just this past weekend China announced that State Owned Enterprises (SOEs) will be allowed to default on commodity derivative contracts. Think of that. China has given the green light and authorized the defaulting on commodity derivative contracts.

This story broke over the weekend but has not gotten much mainstream media attention on this side of the pond. (North America). The only inference to it was the talk or “buzz” on the Wall Street floor that another bank was rumored to be close to defaulting. As Art Cashin of UBS Securities indicated in the video clip I posted earlier, normally when a market sells off on a rumor and the rumor turns out to be false, the market will tend to correct itself. IT DIDN’T.

The Reuters report cited 6 foreign banks that received letters indicating that the Chinese State Owned Enterprises would be given the green light to default on their derivatives.

A look at what a derivative actually is may be useful here. A Derivative is a financial instrument that is derived from some other underlying asset, index, event, value or condition. Rather than trade or exchange the underlying itself, derivative traders enter into an agreement to exchange cash or assets over time based on the underlying. A simple example is a futures contract: an agreement to exchange the underlying asset at a future date. Commercial and investment banks make up the foundation of the over the counter (OTC) derivatives market. Investors use derivatives to protect against risks, such as sudden changes in price or value of the underlying asset. Others tap derivatives to take on extra risk, in the hope of extra gains.

Well China owns billions of these products and it has finally come to light they have had enough of having the value of their derivatives manipulated by the manipulation of the price of the underlying asset. They have finally woken up to the fact that these derivatives have been bundled together like junk in a manner that resembles the mortgage backed derivatives that brought down the world markets last year.

Back to Reuters.  Some of the State Owned Enterprises that stated their potential intentions to default were Air China. China Eastern and Cosco. Mainly in part because they took major derivatives losses over the past year but also, concerns are arising that the derivatives that they were sold by these foreign institutions are garbage, underwater and may never see the light of day. So why continue to pay for them? So the concern in the financial world is that holders of these losing products may just walk away, not unlike a home owner with a $600,000 mortgage on a home valued at $475,000 deciding to just hand in their keys. However, read on...this has nothing to do with morgtgage backed products.  This time, the concern may be over Oil.

They (Reuters) cited 6 foreign banks.Where the story gets really intriguing is that among the major derivatives providers according to Reuters but also widely known in the industry, are Goldman Sachs, UBS and JP Morgan.

Here is the looming problem. These products are worth billions. One report that a good friend of mine did showed that if Goldman Sachs for example were to take this one up the rear, they could stand to lose 15 billion dollars. (This number is by no means confirmed)

An important history lesson is needed here. “Potential default” was the concern that sparked and prompted the most recent economic crisis. These intricately weaved products along with highly speculative CDOs and CDSs began to fall apart when the bubble that was in large part significantly contributed to and created by the financial institutions that were packaging this junk started to fall apart.

Imagine the impact for a brief moment if you will, on the impact to the financial landscape if China were to say “we are walking away” from those products. I would imagine that China, being the biggest purchaser of US debt, could surely collapse the US institutions that were at one point deemed too big to fail if they decide to go ahead with this plan.

This is why I don’t take tonight’s news that China purchased 50 billion dollars of IMF bonds lightly. In fact, I take it very seriously. This is why I take the buzz on the floor over the past two days very seriously as well as I do the incredible spike in Gold today. Most importantly, I do not take lightly the recent 25% correction we have seen in the Chinese Stock Market. Can all these events be interconnected some how? Is the Chinese stock collapse giving us a hint?

The Reuters story came out on Mon Aug 31, 2009 at 7:42am EDT. I find it quite interesting that the mainstream media did not take this more seriously. Reuters reported that the above noted Chinese companies have already issued letters to the banks. The Reuters article cites 4 clear points.

• State-owned firms may default on commodity hedges - report

• Bankers dismayed, confused by report; seek more details

• Lawyers question legality of the move

• Traders suspect lurking losses may have prompted warning (Adds analysts comments)

Analysts are fearing that if these three big companies came out and spelled out their losses and dismay at these products then this might prompt other large Chinese corporations to do the same.

Let’s take a closer look at the companies that have been mentioned in these news articles out of China. They are Air China, China Eastern and Cosco. If you ask me, this conundrum might have to do with oil. I deduce from this that if there is a problem brewing it has everything to do with their Oil Derivatives business.

Here’s a brief overview of what might happen should these companies, and others, default. The banks, namely Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan and from other accounts possibly Deutsche Bank will find themselves LONG on oil futures with no customers on the short side of the derivatives. This will most likely lead the banks to sell the excess oil futures without a care for the price. This is no different than what happened when Bear Stearns was forced to sell off their gold futures in March of 2008 which then resulted in a sharp downturn in the price of Gold.

Reuters stated:

Spokespersons at Goldman Sachs (GS.N) and UBS (UBSN.VX) declined comment, and media officials at Morgan Stanley (MS.N) and JPMorgan (JPM.N) were not immediately available for comment. All are major global providers of commodity risk management.

We have yet to hear their commentary. A Chinese statesperson was quoted as saying “"If we were among the banks receiving that letter, we would be very angry.” You bet your bottom dollar. You don’t think the firms listed above are angry, or, are they frightened that if the Chinese State Owned entities start taking affirmative action it could theoretically bring down some of the biggest remaining names on Wall Street?

Remember Reuters initial story was titled Beijing's derivative default stance rattles market. Read it thoroughly for more information.

Then, read the story that broke last Saturday to get a clearer perspective before the political and corporate spin started to enter the story. China warns banks on OTC hedge defaults –report.

“BEIJING, Aug 29 (Reuters) - Chinese state-owned enterprises (SOEs) may unilaterally terminate derivative contracts with six foreign banks that provide over-the-counter commodity hedging services, a leading financial magazine said.

China's SOE regulator, the State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC), had told the financial institutions that SOEs reserved the right to default on contracts, Caijing magazine quoted an unnamed industry source as saying.”

On September 1, 2009 Reuters said that the Banks, not the commodities would be at risk if China followed through.

Yes, legal battles would ensue should this happen and we can also expect to have Chinese political figures downplay the story in an effort to avert panic. However, if they can prove that these derivatives or the underlying asset was manipulated in a manner to profit the bank that issued the product then that may even do more damage than the default themselves.

Perhaps the “buzz” on the floor is indeed true. Perhaps we are going to see action that could annihilate one of the biggest Wall Street firms ever.

If there is one thing I have learned of late is that when the Chinese speak, we must listen. Their list of allies is ever growing and they are simply fed up of having to swallow the US garbage that has turned out to be toxic and dangerous to their highly controlled and coveted state owned enterprises.

I leave you with these thoughts that I alluded to above. The Chinese market has corrected 25%. This news broke this past weekend. New York saw a sharp sell-off on Monday. Buzz of a bank default hit the floor. The rumor did not abate and the selling intensified. The selling carried over into Tuesday. Gold, a classic hedge against troubled times has broken out to the upside, China has purchased 50 billion in IMF bonds and has been questioning the US dollar now for upwards of a year. China was up 5% overnight and Gold has continued to climb this morning.

Where there is smoke there is often fire.

Please feel free to comment, advise of any corrections or provide additional information if you wish. Comments are moderated but only spam, foul language or insulting comments are not permitted.

103 comments:

  1. Involved : Air China. China Eastern and Cosco.

    Hmm.

    Does nobody GET THIS?

    It is about Oil, not credit or financial derivatives.

    The banks are involved, since they may take the hits.
    But it will be in their Oil Derivatives business
    (BTW, that's a business that I started, all those years ago, when I designed the first Oil Swap at Chase.)

    If they do default, then the banks will suddenly find themselves;

    [b]LONG OIL FUTURES, with no corresponding customer on the short side of the derivatives.[/b]

    What will they do?

    [b]SELL THE EXCESS OIL FUTURES,[/b]
    and they may not care much about the price, much as we saw a sharp selloff in Gold in March 2008,
    when Bear Stearns was "rescued" and forced to sell down its Gold holdings.

    Here's the action then:
    [img]http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/7566/zzzzqua.gif[/img]

    May we see something similar in Oil?
    It is hard to believe (even for me), but we shouldnt rule it out, if those rumors of default are true.

    They may have something to do with the POP yesterday in Gold.

    Since these Chinese firms have written of billions in oil hedging losses, partly unrealised (I Think),
    then there are some billions of potential hist for a handful of big banks, mostly American banks:

    [i]Goldman Sachs (GS.N) and UBS (UBSN.VX) declined comment,
    and media officials at Morgan Stanley (MS.N) and JPMorgan (JPM.N)[/i]

    I note that the Chinese stock market rallied by 5% today.

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  2. Just think about others doing the same in the big world of finance. The derivatives death star of over one Quadrillion dollars just might implode. Wheeeee.

    When you screw people do not be surprized when they get back at you.

    Dragcoupe

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  3. This story is a week old by now...w/o any obvious manifestation.

    What would you expect the time constant on something this big?

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  4. It would be impossible for me to make any prediction as to time. However, I disagree with your comment that there has been no obvious manifestation. New York was buzzing with something on Monday. The rumour and the selling never subsided.

    China always warns first. They are good in that respect. They fire their warning shots across the bow of your ship. If they don't see what they what they want, they then make their move. It boils down to who takes them seriously.

    China is the manufacturing super power. They need to export those goods. They need oil.

    It may never come to pass or it may sudeenly explode. There are legs to this story though and it remains something to keep a very keen eye on. I will continue to follow it with interest.

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  5. Well, if they're on the winning side, the counterparty can now default against them - seems only fair, and the policy is endorsed by the Bank of China.
    Either the futures market will be destroyed, or no positions will be taken from Chinese specs or even producers (who should be costing their futures into their products anyway, thus locking in their costs. I mean, they are doing this, aren't they? Is anybody now?)
    How will anyone know who they're dealing with though? How do you know who's a Chinese company, and who's not?

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  6. Another thought is that the whole basis of contract law as developed in Common Law over hundreds of years, is that contracts can be enforced. If contract laws cannot be enforced, the whole basis of the Western economic/social system is destroyed, instantly. Anyone could walk away from anything, anytime...welcome to the third world...where the negotiating never ends.

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  7. China has it's own people for a consumer market and would suffer a bit by default, but nothing like the central banks. World finance would drastically change. Us people will learn to buy with cash as we did in the forties ... if we still have a job somewhere. The wheel turns relentlessly.

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  8. The banks made the bed, right? Now they will have to lie in it.

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  9. There is no substitute for cash.

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  10. It has been too quiet all week.

    Here's comes the BOOM !

    I took a nice profit on jr. mining shares.I will re enter next week.My Silver Bullion is doing nicely though!

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  11. If China defaults, then so can the US - and who owes the most to whom?

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  12. The concept of contracts being enforced ended in this country in the fall of '08 and early in the term of the radical socialist ninny in the White House. They screwed bond holders in the GM and Chrysler deals - broke contracts all over the place. This by our own gobmint. We are now indeed a third world country, where negotiating never ends. Where have you been?

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  13. With regards to contracts, I don't know if any of you caught this Reuters story titled: Morgan Stanley, Moody's, S&P Must Defend Fraud Claims.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE5817EK20090902

    Essentially, in the case brought by Abu Dhabi Commercial Bank and King County in Washington state, the lawsuit accused the defendants of marketing a complex instrument, the Cheyne Structured Investment Vehicle, as a high-quality investment, but masked the risks.

    This case may have an impact on these complex instruments and remains one to watch and may have a bearing on financial instrument contracts.

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  14. Dan... Thanks for the post! There is something that I don't understand that you may be able to clairify for me. These co.s that you mentioned use oil in their businesses, would need to protect against rising price, why would they be short oil in a big way?

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  15. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing GSAX or JPM take it in the shorts, maybe go into the toilet. I think (hope!) we can do without them. However, I'm afraid if it gets to that, the US govt will just pick our pockets (again!) for enough to keep them afloat. We should know by now who the Really Important People in our society are.

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  16. Re: the common law post, it is my understanding that some of these derivative instruments involve possible fraud (real or percieved) which could be a legal basis for nullifying the contracts.

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  17. Which is why the Abu Dhabi Commercial Bank case I referenced above is so important.. it speaks to my point of the manner in which the product was sold to the Chinese.

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  18. Is it not true, in legal circles, that fraudulent contracts are NOT enforcable? Considering that one must lie in order to steal, perhaps these banks' derivative contracts are capable of being proved fraudulent, and that's why China and others have had enough. Manipulation of the underlying bet is like school districts trying to hedge against interest rate increases. What they didn't know was that the originators of those contracts had the power to lower interest rates to nothing. Why else would originators had taken the other side of the bet? Geez, stealing from school children. How sociopathic!

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  19. It would appear a though some chickens, (not all of them mind you) are circling lower Manhattan, and coming down to roost.

    The recent past still fresh in my memory, I can't seem to work up any sympathy for the swarmy creatures, located on Wall Streeet, who invented these curious investment "vehicles".

    Pay back is always a be-otch.

    OR

    the shoe is NOW on the other foot?

    joe z

    PS:

    I think a "bank holiday" is now assured and somewhat quicker than many people thought.

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  20. as far a banking center banks taking it in the shorts, wishful thinking.

    this is a chinese hedge with which they hope to achieve some as yet unrevealed goal.

    bond buybacks for some of that oil GS has sitting in tankers waiting offshore

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  21. Some of you are talking about the futures markets blowing up. This will not happen, as these contracts that are to potentially be defaulted are in the UNREGULATED, over the counter (OTC) market. This has nothing to do with futures markets that have been in use for over a hundred years and are highly regulated. This does not mean that the regulated futures markets won't experience some volatility as a result though.

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  22. Is it just a coincidence that there's a G20 meeting this weekend ? Is it just a coincidence that the IMF gold will be on the agenda again.....and that China wants to buy that Gold off-market.

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  23. Is it also a coincidence that Hong Kong has asked for all it's Gold to be returned from London? It wants all it's Gold stored locally now. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hong-kong-recalls-gold-reserves-from-london-2009-09-03?link=kiosk

    Something is brewing. Make no mistake.

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  24. And Germany requested the same last week!

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  25. How Disgusting!
    We have to rely on the Chinese Communists to correct the excesses and greed in the American financial system. Our Democratically elected officials have turned "Free Markets" to Free Money for "To Big To Fail".
    I am cheering for the Chinese!

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  26. I see this as a gambit for the Chinese SOEs to get US taxpayer dollars. This is how it works:

    The US consumer is tapped out, not spending. The wheels are falling off the Chinese exports machine and an internal crisis looms, they want the US to spend money to avert that. OK, if they can't get at our money the Olde Fashioned Way (sales) they'll get it another way (theft). The SOEs default on their payments and pocket what would have been expenses as income. The US banking system falls over, and the Obama administration does what they did before, and props it up with TARP funds. GS and the rest end up revenue neutral (OK, they probably make a small profit) and the Chinese are up on US dollars. Ka-ching! the sound of money.

    So in the end, the Chinese are able to tap TARP funds via 2-big-2-fail intermediaries in the US banking community. And Ben Bernanke runs the printing presses for another 5 minutes today to cover the losses.

    Rinse and repeat.

    -= cougar =-

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  27. This is the same sort of "Black Swan" that started World War One.

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  28. I think before it's all over that the average American man and woman is going to wish...1)That they had a lot more gold and silver than they now do. 2)They had woke up years ago and threw out the Republicans and Democracts and replaced them with Libertarians and 3)Stockpiled food, guns and ammo, not neccessarily in that order.

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  29. what goes around comes around.. the banks were screwing the world, now look who is getting screwed now..

    paybacks are a bi*tch..and so is karma..

    and i don'tt see no more bailouts.. lol, are you kidding...the ropes will be coming out and lots of hangings will be going on..

    now where are those lamposts on wallstreet....

    and if congress thinks they can help their buddies on wallstreet, the people will have their eyes on them..

    stay tuned.. this isn't over yet

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  30. To review; these OTC deriatives are hedged derivatives on futures contracts (therefore GS is not going to be left holding naked LONGS on Oil, that is impossible)However this operation sounds vaguely like what Goldman did to AIG, calling in their derivative positions,knowing it would bankrupt AIG, while their agent at Treasury used the threat of collapse to fund the bailout, knowing that the bailout money would pass through to Goldman. Part two, Crude Oil prices are high relative to demand, and the Chinese would like to buy more oil, and fill their new SPR, but they don't want to pay inflated prices, so they took out short positions to compensate them for the oil they have already purchased, not understanding how taking this position causes the seller of the derivative to continue to manipulate the price higher. Part three, remember when Goldman rejiggered their commodity index (lowering the weight on gasoline) sending gasoline traders heading for the exits,and sent prices lower, ahead of the mid term elections?. Part four, knocking Oil prices down would only help the economy at this point. If the outcome of all this is $35 oil, what's the problem? Part five, if the Fed would just goose interest rates, or let the market float the number, stocks would take off like a rocket ship, and the Fed would achieve genuine reflation of the markets. Part six,while hiding behind the skirts of underwater mortgage holders, (and their Congressional representatives) the Fed remains committed to asset inflation, which is why the Gold market remains stubbornly high. Should OIL lose 50% what would Gold do? I ask that question.

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  31. You know, there were a few threats issued that concerned Mr. Bernanke's reappointment. I wonder...

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  32. RobertB

    china can, has, and will default on contracts.

    they have done so here in australia with a couple of iron ore miners.

    beware - china does not care about a contract if it is not in their interest and will walk away

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  33. For all the manipulations of markets by JPM & GS, with help from the Fed, US Govt. & PPT, what comes around go's around. RIH GS & JPM.

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  34. i am just sittin on my porch takin a deep breath and being thankful for the moment .those who are addicted to money are in for an awakening

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  35. CHINA HAS STRENGTH WHERE AMERICA DOES

    NOT! THEIR STRENGTH BEING IN "ALL FOR

    CHINA"!

    SUCH HAS NEVER BEEN AN AMERICAN

    MINESET SINCE LBJ QUIT ALONG WITH

    HIS "GREAT SOCIETY" THUS PLANTING THE

    SEED OF "TO BIG TO FAIL"!

    NOW THE "SPREAD THE WEALTH AROUND BRO"

    SCREWING UP HIS HISTORICAL WET DREAM

    AND THAT OF HIS FOLLOWERS ARE TAKING

    THIS COUNTRY TO THEIR "NEW POOR

    HOUSE"!

    ALL IN THE NAME OF "HOPE AND CHANGE"!

    HIS HOPE AND YOUR MISSING CHANGE

    MEASURED IN QUADTRILLIONS OF $$$$$.

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  36. China told Obama not to reappoint Berny.... Obama did anyway..... It's pay back time .... Obama doesn't control the world and others have alternatives also.

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  37. I agree that the Sleeping Giant China is awakening, and they're going to be playing by the rules that were in effect in the late 19th century, when the West marched in with troops, took over territorial "concessions," and helped them along with the whole opium addiction thing. Tough darts, Money Trust.

    One thing though...Bear Stearns did NOT sell their gold back in March. Bear was a contrary indicator writ large, they were long gold on March 17 when they were "nailed out." JPM took over their gold book and sold the crap out of it - to make us think everything was okie dokie - on Tuesday and Wednesday.

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  38. Thank you for that Financial Foghorn.

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  39. Something definitely awry here.
    www.solari.com/blog/?p=4120

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  40. I wonder if the chinese consider buying up excess oil on the market and storing it in tankers elvating the price of oil when it should clearly be lower considering supply and demand; fraud. Since the only reason they have the money to do so is hide bad assets and get $$$ from the gov. If the Chinese are willing to withdrawl liquidity from their own markets (1 month ago) stating possible bubbles forming, and they believe oil is a bubble and SOE's are in trouble because the price and supply is being manipulated....then maybe they have grounds to say see ya...i imagine the only way to fix it is to drive oil down to where China thinks(wants) it should be.

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  41. Simply put, what does this all mean to the average investor? Should one have gold miners, Gold EFTs, puts on oil producers? I can't figure it out.

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  42. Frankly, I'm surprised that the Chinese aren't assassinating some of the Wall St CEO's that peddled this trash to them. The have a long history of taking business fraud personally. Like Nicholas Deak.
    So now they realize they got taken, by the slick boys at JPM and GS.
    And they realize they hold all the cards.
    Well, if our own damn government won't stop these Wall St thieves (because the govt is in bed with them), then maybe the commie Chinese will.
    How Ironic.
    Add to that the news that they are officially encouraging their people to buy physical gold/silver.
    The author thinks these are oil derivative contracts. Nice plan: let Wall St sell them a boatload of long contracts (maybe during last year's run-up)on margin of course.
    Price of oil crashes (I'm shocked!), and the banks got a nice income stream from margin calls going. Nice scam while it lasts.
    They appear to have the Chinese by the balls.
    But the Chinese do a nice Tai Chi move and realize that they got JPM and GS by the short hairs.
    Plan? Default on those oil contracts. Crash that price of oil (which the American consumer in a depression will love - good PR).
    THEN, with that trillion and a half of loose cash they got hanging around, they will buy freaking OCEANS of oil, and be on top of the economic heap for...oh, about 100 years.

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  43. the greed of these favored institutions has killed the great game. after squeezing the american middle class with usury( credit card rates), sending all manufacturing overseas(free trade, although no other country practices it) and denying a decent rate of return for pensioners and savers (cd rates), Goldman and JP have no where else to turn for their setup and slaughter other than trading profits, witness the last quarter. a better performance than mrs. clinton's run in commodity trading. unfortunately for them there's a new sheriff in town. China don't play that game homey!

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  44. This means GoldmanSach needs to naked short US market again to get their loss back. Watch your retirement accounts.

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  45. Man, there is no third way. The only way is the ethical way. And we don't have that. Socialism failed due to human corruption. Now Capitalism will fail due to human corruption. The only government meant to work was Jesus on his throne.
    The King is on the way, so relax.

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  46. Your report is very interesting indeed.
    I invite You to see a great collection of views of borders (riigipiirid) in my Italian-Estonian site http://www.pillandia.blogspot.com
    Helping text in 30 different languages too.
    Best wishes from Italy!

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  47. Based on the type of companies-air china, cosco- they are bona fide hedgers, and would therefore have synthetic long positions- not short. They would have entered contracts to protect against price spikes, not price plunge. Therefore their counterparties would hold synthetic shorts - probably some form of long-dated WOOM oil contracts. If anything these banks would be buying oil to cover, but that isn't necessarily the case. Since these are derivative defaults, the contracts just go up in smoke. No action necessary. Just future flows of money based on the contracts won't exist. Big story because it represents a vote of no confidence.

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  48. Wow, lots of information. I just think China realizes that we owe them so much money now that the interest rates alone are so high we can't ever possbibly get out of their debt, so they are screwing us before we screw them. They are repo'ing our nation and keeping the assets. This is just phase I. Ask yourself this. If China is VISA and we are the CC holder and we make 40k a year and the interest on what we owe China is 15k a year. Would VISA continue to give us a line of credit? No. China's going to start shutting us down in any market where them defaulting doesn't hurt trade. They want their money back. I think at this point I don't know who's worse our communist radical president or the Banks stealing our homes, money, and tax dollars now for decades to come. I can't believe the bankers are not being shot at by China and the American people for what they have done to us. At least China stands up for their people. Our government just stole our money and gave it to the banks when what they really should have done is taken the money and bail out the people in the houses. Foreclosures are down this month? Bull! It's because banks aren't foreclosing any more. They just let the property sit there and go into ruin and hopefully someone squatter will burn it down and they can get some insurance money. Our whole way of life is so messed up right now and its because we have the greediest SOB's in the world trying to screw everyone and everything and they control our government now too. Throw the bankers in Guantanamo and ask them where they put the money and give back to the people they stole it from. Example Maddof. Chairman of the Exchange is the biggest crook of them all. What is our society becoming? This doesn't even resemble America any more.

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  49. According to my sources the commodity that the Chinese are going to default in is...SILVER

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  50. This article was so gratifying to read. Yeah for the Chinese. I am a patriotic American but apparently there is no Rule of Law anymore. It took a foreign power to swoop in and right a grave wrong. We are all going to suffer, but as I sit and eat a PB&J sandwich, and witness the carnage, it will be good to see the Social Democratic Welfare State DIE. America has become a cesspool of moral and ethical filth. It's all over folks.

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  51. "...You don’t think the firms listed above are angry, or, are they frightened that if the Chinese State Owned entities start taking affirmative action it could theoretically bring down some of the biggest remaining names on Wall Street..?"

    My comment: COOL!!! It would make my ENTIRE YEAR to watch a crooked, evil empire such as Goldman Sachs choke to death on it's own vomit.

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  52. anonymus sep 4 12:06 pm. gitmo isnt big enough to incarcerate the last fourty years accumulation of crooks.make em all stand on the district of columbia,chop it off from america, and set it adrift.get rid of that foreign country and the parasites at the same time.

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  53. Man About Dallas is right on the money. This is being orchestrated so the illuminasts will have a reason for China and Russia to attack the USA. Read theprophecies of Linda Newkirk. Also read the Bible, the US will be destroyed in an hour!

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  54. Maybe I just don't understand this.. but here is what I get from the article and comments..

    GS has one side of an OTC trade with a Chinese SOE on the other side. If it has been generating money for GS until now, and now the SOE decides to default, then either

    a) no more income on this to GS OR
    b) GS can't collect their expected profits already accrued

    So perhaps their financial statemens shows income that they now can't collect.

    What is the problem with that... a write off later?

    What am I missing?

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  55. What happens next? Does the U.S. attack China, or does China attack the U.S. with the intent to claim our land as collateral for the debt we owe them?

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  56. It will be China and Russia attacking the U.S. as we have been provoking them in every way especially since 8-8-08. Don't party too soon over defaults to the Zionist bankers. They don't give a rip about the U.S. They just used us to do their dirty work(wars). The old headquarters must be destroyed before the new one is fully established. They are simply moving their capitol to Jerusalem/Mystery Babylon as planned.

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  57. What I don't get is why does everyone (minus 1 silver vote) think it has to do with oil? Why not GOLD or Silver or Copper?

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  58. Could be GOLD, who has the most PUTS out there in GOLD?

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  59. Anonymous... the thinking that it may be oil related is linked to the companies that were listed in the initial Reuters release. Given that they are transportation related entities, oil comes to the forefront. HOWEVER, I suspect derivatives covering other commodoties and asset classes will also be involved IF this comes to pass.

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  60. China does not need to attack the U.S. phyically. China can, at a time convenient to them, crash the U.S. dollar and bring the U.S. to it's knees. They are already in the process of buying up things with their dollar reserves. We will all suffer soon, due to our ignorant population electing incompetent and corrupt boobs into office. Our founders had a simple rule, and it is this one rule that we did not follow that has lead us to this point in time and into our dire situation. NO PAPER MONEY, NO CENTRAL BANK. It's that simple folks. Gold, Guns and Butter...stock up.

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  61. First, China is NOT going to attack the US. We have absolutely NOTHING they want or need. 500 years BEFORE the Spanish, English and French colonized North America, the Chinese HAD ALREADY explored the Americas! They did NOT set up ONE single colony. You kids do NOT understand the Chinese mind! Chinese IS modernizing and they HAVE the resources to do it. Period! Cutting off the American crooks is all that is going on here! The fraud is over... brace yourselves, the best bit of reality is really really going to hurt!

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  62. If you are focusing on Obama as the root of this problem, you are WAY off base. The severe corruption of the government and the gutting of American financial stability STARTED way back in Reagan's Administration!! The Bozos that came afterward just built on the corruption, eating from the same trough so to speak. Neil Bush's S&L scandal of the 1980's was ONLY a dress rehearsal. SURPRISE! The REAL SHOW started 2 years ago!!!! I'm sorry, but there will be NO intermission.... this goes all the way to the end without stopping. The Chinese DID nothing to America, why play the victim role here?.... they simply got out of the way and let the fat bully fall on his own weight!!!

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  63. Great research Dan. Mainstream media will take a few weeks or months to get into this and then the spin will blur it all, same as the GFC and Bear Stearns first domino to fall. Cash and all forms of it is the way to take the banksters out. And talk about them with your friends. People in all advanced countries need to wake up, turn off the tv and find out how the banksters are doing this and take the red cordial away from them.

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  64. It's a derivatives collapse.

    www.DerivativesCollapse.com

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  65. I think China is guilty of 20+ years of currency manipulation and protectionist trade policies. Aided and abetted by stupid US politicians and businessmen they have gutted the American manufacturing sector. If they want to start walking away from contracts there are plenty of debts we owe to China that don't need to be repaid. Also nationalization of all Chinese assets here is only a Congressional vote away.

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  66. It makes little sense that airlines were SHORT oil in 2009. Rather, coming out of the 2008 price environment, and not knowing what 2009 would bring, they would go LONG oil. Airlines should never go short oil. That makes no sense. If oil drops, all the benefit immediately accrues to airlines without financial hedging.

    Perhaps they are short something else. It's not likely oil.

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  67. The larger problem is that 'trust' will be broken in the derivatives markets, resulting in a rush to bail out and leave others holding the bag, doing unto others before they do unto you, as it were.

    This loss of confidence by the breach of trust through the default will trigger uncertainty, and -that- will paralyze the markets and the financial system.

    As a visualization exercise, think of the video of the slow-motion pin popping the water balloon. The failure of the containment ('trust') by the breach takes only an instant, the water remaining motionless for an moment. Then it all falls away...

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  68. Some of you apparently don't know what socialism is.I wish you would keep your ignorant loud mouth shut.
    The system that failed is capitalism,the ruins of capitalism are visible everywhere.
    The USA,being a wholly owned colony of Israel,has been looted to the point of collapse,with the help of the 80% dual passport holders in congress who are ready to jump ship,when the public realises,what has been done to them.
    It's pretty obvious Obama has a gun held at his head and told where to sail this listing ship.
    BTW,the 63 billion dollars stolen by Isreal this year are being paid out in Euros,per Israel's demand,a similar request by Egypt was denied.

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  69. Has the fuse to WW3 just been lit?

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  70. I agree.... I doubt this has anything to do with oil.

    My take:
    1) China is warning about future action and has named 3 large firms as possible participants
    2) Those 3 large firms are the 'stray lead' into a large and damaging act by China.

    In other words, this will come to fruition and will happen as they have warned, however, the 3 companies cited are probably meant to divert attention and possibly lower oil prices in the interim.

    No doubt... large Wall Street firms are in jeopardy.

    And as for The King coming back.... it can't happen soon enough. Please LORD, come down and help us who can't stand watching the corruption and financial greed ruin our world. We need divine intervention and teachings and a REAL leader to lead. Geithner, Obama, and Bernanke are not leaders.
    Yes, they are human so make mistakes. However, making a mistake and learning from it is how we advance as a society.
    If "learning from your mistakes" was all that is required without proper action, then to be smart means you need to constantly screw up. How dumb.

    This world needs some direction.
    We are all at the mercy of money. Sad, just plain sad.

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  71. they may be long oil at $120 or so. but who knows could be aluminium, copper or whatever at whatever price in whatever complex options knock-in/out etc structure. apparently, only complex products are now included in the "defaultable" contracts.

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  72. when elephants fight the grass gets trampled.

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  73. What besides oil would transportation cos. buy derivative contracts and why particularly silver?

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  74. What besides oil would tranportation cos. buy derivative contracts?

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  75. False Flag to cover problem?? My take is that September/ October will be the dumping time in the market. GS drove the market up....on "hopes and greenshoots". Now that longs are in position, the hammer will drop. Market tanks back to March Levels and GS just made more billions. When will these crooks be hanged?

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  76. Financial Foghorn,,,,I think you are totally correct. GS took over Bear Stearns long positions,,,,sold Bears books and went short,,,thus overwhelming all the longs.

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  77. An earlier poster included this link regarding China recalling its' gold reserves from London to a new facility in HK.
    ( http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hong-kong-recalls-gold-reserves-from-london-2009-09-03?link=kiosk )
    So how relevant is this? Just the evolution of their regimes handling of wealth or rather is it what anyone one would do prior to possibly catostrophic finance events (ie the us system crashing) Does this imply that gold is the basis for the derivatives? or does this portend Chinsa intentions to aquire massive bullion reserves to offset their future losses in us govt securities. And lastly does this suggest an unwiilingness to trust western keep of its bullion wealth with what may be coming?

    Appreciate any views.

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  78. I think China's had enough and their delay into these matters has only been delayed so that they could move their pawns into play.The most recent warning shot was their arrest of some employee's and corp officers in the steel industry who may be responsible for leaking state production amounts of iron ore an causing the april 07 spike in steel prices. They raided offices and seized hard drives and records-and for all I know these people are still being detailed.

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  79. If Banks are holding long end of the contracts, then the chineese cies ars short of the same contract. What i dont understand, why chineese cies would short of a commidity they desperatly need, and which is on arising price profile, i.e OIL ? I would rather say that the chineese companies would default on there long contracts, which would send the price of oil sky high...

    Thay saied, maybe i m wrong...

    Thks.

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  80. It may be not Oil, nor Gold, nor Silver. But natural Gas ...! Chinese were long NatGas, and look at $NATGAS chart...It s deep near LT bottom...

    BTW, yesterady NATGAS took +8% in a day..

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  81. Traders, investors, et all, will be too busy dying from the Squalene and other poisonous goodies in the soon to be mandated Flu Shots to do anything about the crash. There’s your false flag. Let’s not waste energy playing the Left/Right paradigm hoax by blaming an individual president. They are all salesmen for the New World Order. These globalists have been stealing from the American people for decades. It was decided in the 1990s that the game would be moved to Asia. They sold out America and her people but they miscalculated when it came to the Chinese. You Wall Streeter’s who cheered every time American jobs were shipped off shore, benefits eliminated and the bankers (et al) bailed out, miscalculated too. With the rage that’s about to be unleashed I wouldn’t want to be one of you, or part of the state run media and especially not a sitting member of a legislature or Congress. Where would you like your justice delivered; at the penthouse in town or at the beach house? Wall Street – Main Street matters not. They’ve gotten all there is and are now tossing everyone in the gutter.

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  82. If this saga forces the collapse of even just one of the big US banks then we will witness the much feared collapse of the world economies as the derivatives death star goes into meltdown. All is linked together and one collapse will effect others. If China goes ahead with it's threat it will be tantamount to their own suicide.

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  83. I don't know much about derivatives-"or the French I took"-but I do know that the dollar cannot last.
    I read somewhere that the avergage amount of time it took for a currency to collapse after removing the gold standard was 33 years...(we're now at 38).
    I have gold and I'm up 70% in the last 3.5 years so I kinda like this game!

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  84. HARD TO MAKE SENSE OF ALL THIS-I BELIEVE THERE WILL BE ALL SORTS OF FALSE LEADS TO DIVERT ATTENTION FROM THE REAL PLAY-HOWEVER--MY DAD SAID;"THERE ARE THREE PRECIOUS METALS-GOLD-SILVER AND LEAD--THE LEAD KEEPS THEM AWAY FROM THE GOLD AND SILVER"--ADD TO THAT WISDOM AND STORE UP A LITTLE FOOD AND YOU WILL RIDE THIS OUT.CASH OR IT'S EQUIVALENT WILL BE KING!!!

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  85. By 2050 China will be the leading military and economic power on Earth.

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  86. I remember when China forced our spy down then made them dismantle it to get it back.I think what ever China does with these derivatives will be fair but disgrace those who are gulity.

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  87. Here's the latest news out of reuters:http://www.cnbc.com/id/32721314

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  88. I do wonder if this has anything to do with the Chinese starting to buy into the Canadian oil sands in Alberta. They want direct access to one the largest supplies in the world from what they perceive as a stabel country.

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  89. Just a China ploy wherein they want a goodly % of ownership in GS, JPM, et al in exchange for backing off.

    Re oil, the USA can control the price at will, i.e., up for the benefit of producer Russia, down for China's consumption benefit, playing Russia's interests against China's. Need a higher price? Simply have the Plunge Protection Team load up long futures contracts, and tell the friendly OPEC members to reduce production, and visa versa as needed. At the ultimate, also start a war w/Iran to goose the price, or the USA releases secret proprietary free energy technology that will bankrupt Russia & OPEC, to the great appreciation of China.

    The geopolitics game is one wherein the USA holds all the cards ... devalue the $ and put up China import barriers, China goes bust with internal revolutions, breaking up into many separate feudal countries, as then Taiwan's gov't takes over with USA & Europe's aid.

    In summary, China is merely blowing smoke ... don't mess with the USA, or pay the $price!

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  90. I have written an update to this story. You can read it at the following link.

    http://thefundamentalview.blogspot.com/2009/09/china-derivatives-threat-updated-and.html

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  91. Fascinating. IMO, the Chinese own the US, and US over-played its hand, selling toxic assets to them.

    China is patient, and have long memories. And they have the relative power.

    Joe C

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  92. If its Nat Gas the story is almost over.

    If its oil, the big 6 will be long oil since they bought the paper contracts/stored crude on tankers which they were selling to the Chinese, since the Chinese aren't going to pay, they don't get delivery which is why the big 6 are long, b.c, they didn't get to deliver. NOw if they sell the unwanted position off...the price will go down...to the Benefit of the Chinese energy buying spree......

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  93. There is only one important commodity. Food..You must produce it yourself or be able to pay for it with cash. I think that this is China's third year as a net importer of food. Only the US has the infrastructure to supply and a weak currency to boot. So relax, pay out your debt and buy a new garden rake.
    Ed the grocer

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  94. Thank you China!!!! All of our so called 'patriots' combined didn't have the backbone to do it. But you may have done the best thing for America if you can manage to get those vampyre octapi unwrapped from around our collective faces.

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  95. Don't know what the specific facts are on this story. But what is clear as daylight is that the US is controlled by Wall St moneychangers who manipulate our so-called "democratically elected" leaders to continue to suck the blood out of working Americans. That's why Obama has never uttered the following: " I have instructed the justice dept and FBI to go after the crooks who brought our financial system to near-collapse by fradulent schemes and open-looting of pension fund and other retirement assets".. Not one Wall St who participated in this massive fraud has even been indicted forget about going to jail. So the US/British monopoly of world is coming to end end to be repalced by China and other emerging powers. The anger should be directed to only one place: Wall St moneychangers and US Congressmen/Senators who allowed this to happen in broad daylight.

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  96. Anonymous asked "Why would China short something it desparately needs?" The short and the long is relative to derivative traders. Short for Goldman is long for China. On the long side, Goldman has contracts to buy oil it doesn't yet have to sell to China, so Goldman has to sell more short, or sell the long contracts. I don't think that they will loose too much. It is not the absolute values -- just the differences.

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  97. China is a dwarf. A dead isolated dwarf, without the US.

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  98. No doubt China's growth is shooting at the moment but I believe that their economic fundamentals are not strong enough when we look the scenario in long term. Lets wait and watch what happens.
    Wachovia Online Banking

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  99. I think China's economy will continue o grow in the next few years because they have so many exports and foreign investments.

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  100. CHINA NEEDS LAND, SIMPLE THINGS LIKE RUNNING WATER TO LOOK UP AND SEE THE BLUE SKY THE USA THINKS ITS WORTH EVERY LAST CENT AND MORE WHEN THEY DECIDE TO PULL THE PIN EITHER WAY CHINA WILL BE ALLOWED TO JOIN IN AND HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE ONLY THE MASTERS PROPERTY.

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  101. i think China is a dwarf. A dead isolated dwarf and without the US.
    ==================================
    China Investment

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  102. The concept of contracts being enforced ended in this country in the fall of '08 and early in the term of the radical socialist ninny in the White House. They screwed bond holders in the GM and Chrysler deals - broke contracts all over the place. This by our own gobmint. We are now indeed a third world country, where negotiating never ends. Where have you been?




    Credit Union

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